Episode 12:
An extrovert’s journey to starting a solopreneur coaching business with Josh Jeffries
Richard Anderson is joined by Josh Jeffries, a self proclaimed extrovert who started his own coaching business.
In a world where distractions and the fast pace of life have made it harder for us to listen to each other, Josh believes that coaching provides a sacred space where people can be heard and listened to deeply.
As an extrovert, Josh initially struggled with his impulse to speak during his coaching training, but he was challenged to suspend his judgment and practice deep listening, a skill that he believes is essential for an effective coach.
In this episode, we’ll learn more about Josh’s journey and the insights he has gained throughout his coaching experience. So sit back, relax, and join us as we explore the power of listening in coaching, and how it can benefit entrepreneurs and business owners. Thank you for tuning in.
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Episode 12 – Transcript
Voiceover:
Welcome to Psyched For Business, helping business leaders understand and apply cutting edge business psychology principles in the workplace.
Richard Anderson:
Hi, and welcome to Psyched For Business. I’m Richard Anderson, thanks for joining me. In this episode, we’re joined by Josh Jeffries, who is an extrovert, who started his own coaching business. We find out why he did that, and some of the things that he’d found out throughout the experience. I hope you enjoy, thanks again for listening.
Josh Jeffries, welcome to Psyched For Business. How are you doing? Thank-you for joining me.
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, no, thanks for having me. I’m good, thanks. A little bit disheveled. Got a toddler who’s not sleeping very well, so apologies for the eye bags. But yeah, I’m well.
Richard Anderson:
You never have to apologize for anything like that with me, Josh. I’ve been through that twice myself. It’s a difficult time, but a fun one, isn’t it?
Josh Jeffries:
It certainly is, yeah.
Richard Anderson:
Fantastic. Well thanks again Josh, for making the time. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you over the last few weeks. I know that we share a number of things in common. I know that you’re an extrovert. You started a business. You’re a solopreneur, as I was at one stage. We’ve both got toddlers. There’s a lot that we’ve got in common.
I think for the listeners, they’ll be really interested in hearing more about your journey. That’s obviously what this podcast is going to be all about, you taking us through that journey. But as a bit of a start, would you be happy to tell us a little bit about yourself, and how you got into the world of coaching?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, sure. I’m originally from Oxford. Now a south Londoner. Which is touch, being an Arsenal fan, so usually I’ve spend a lot of my time north of the river over the last few years. But now I reside in south London. I’m married to Ellie, got a little daughter. I’ve been coaching full time, coaching for about seven years. It’s quite an interesting route in, I suppose.
I first heard about coaching through a friend of mine who invited me up to Scotland, to work on his estate. Which sounds very bougie, but my mate was the office manager on a consultancy up in Scotland. He was training as a psychologist, and as a coach. I went up to work the grounds during my first summer as a student. I was just working the grounds with this groundskeeper in Scotland, which was unbelievable. It was on Loch Tay, up in Perthshire.
Richard Anderson:
Lovely.
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, so it was incredible. I didn’t really know anything about coaching. I think like a lot of people, I didn’t really know coaching existed as a profession. When I heard about it, learned a bit about the psychology behind it, some of the theories behind it, and what coaching could do, I was just fascinated by it to be honest. I knew, I think I was 21 at the time, I knew then that if there was any chance that I could become a coach, then I would take it. So I did. That was my first exposure to it.
Then I went to uni, went through uni, and then I worked for an amazing charity in London, actually as a trainee coach. So my first experience of coaching was working with young people at risk of social exclusion. So 16 to 25 year olds who were out of work, and struggling just in life, and struggling to get back into work, or into education. Essentially we would recruit them at job centers, and then onto a six week pre-employability course. We’d coach them in groups, and one to one, to help them with mindset. Help them with CV writing, with interview preparation, with job applications.
A lot of mindset though is really helping them actually get job ready. So that when they actually get into work, they can sustain employment. Then we would also coach them for a year after they got into work, to help them sustain employment. An amazing charity, I still follow them today. I’m still in touch with lost of people who work there. They’re called Spear. Well, the charity is called Resurgo, but the Spear program is where I worked.
During my time there, I did a course called Coaching For Leadership, which was essentially a crash course in coaching. Actually, to this day, it’s hands down some of the best training I’ve ever had. Even after seven years of doing it full time, it was amazing. So that was my introduction. A window into coaching up in Scotland, and then it was an opportunity to actually start coaching with Spear. Then I did that, and really fell in love with it, and knew that that was what I wanted to do.
Richard Anderson:
I think it’s brilliant as well, at such a young age. You said you were 21 when you went up to Scotland, and you did that. It’s nice to know what you want to do, and stay true to that, and obviously you’ve done that. You obviously had a stage working for other organizations in coaching. You’ve mentioned one already. But then you’ve gone off, and you’re now a solopreneur, so you started your own business, earlier on this year? Back end of last year?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, March this year, yeah.
Richard Anderson:
March of this year, brilliant. You’ve called it Capital Traits. Why don’t you tell us why you’ve called it Capital Traits, and what’s it all about?
Josh Jeffries:
So just quickly going back, after I left Spear, I joined a company called Acre. They’re an amazing global recruitment consultancy, who operate in sustainability. They had a learning and development that they had just launched. I’d been there for two years in a recruitment capacity, so training as a recruitment consultant. Just cutting my teeth in the world of sales and recruitment, which is good. Good fun.
I got an opportunity to join their L&D startup. It was called Acre Framework. So I joined them after two years at Acre. One of the first things I did as part of my training there was to take some training with SHL’s occupational personality questionnaire, the OPQ. Which is a trait based psychometric tool. So we would use the OPQ. We also had a bespoke competency framework, which we used to support leadership development. We would assess people, give them feedback on their results, and help them formulate a development plan with that.
Then from there, we grew out a coaching business, which I helped to spearhead. I did a transformational coaching diploma with Animas, which is a center for coaching. So I had this psychometric qualification. I had this coaching diploma, and then did that for five years. I absolutely loved it. Over the course of my career, and a relatively short one, I appreciate, but I’ve had exposure to different assessments. Type based indicators, trait based indicators, Myers-Briggs insights. You name it, I’ve been through it.
I just fell in love with the OPQ as a really powerful tool, which I felt was a really good launchpad for an amazing conversation about self awareness. About personality. About working styles. About strengths, development gaps, all kinds of things. I’d never used it as an in or an out, too predictive a measure, or definitive a measure, but as a launchpad for a conversation.
I really enjoyed the world of trait based assessments. So when I came to start my own business, I was thinking about names, and what do I want to call it? I thought, “Well, Capital Traits made sense,” because I guess you could say my business is about helping people to capitalize on their key traits that make them uniquely them. We all have capital traits. Traits that come more naturally to us, that make us uniquely us. I think the more we can play to those, whilst also of course growing your self awareness, and mitigating things that don’t come so naturally to us, the more effective we can be, and the more likely we are to thrive, in life and at work. So Capital Traits had a ring to it, and I just went for it.
Richard Anderson:
It sounds brilliant. It rolls off the tongue, and makes complete sense when you explain it. You started talking about psychometrics, so I wouldn’t mind touching on that for another minute or two, if you’re happy to. So trait based tools, type based tools, I’ve actually recorded a couple of these podcasts where we’ve looked at the differences between these tools. It’s a really interesting topic, for anybody who’s not familiar with type versus trait.
But you mentioned the OPQ, the SHL occupational personality questionnaire. What do you love about that particular tool? When you say it acts as a launchpad for discussion, in what capacity? How does that normally work?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, so most of your listeners will be way more familiar with this stuff than I am, to be honest. I’m not a psychometrician. I wouldn’t call myself a psychometrician, because I don’t have a clinical or business psychology background. I’m a bit of a black sheep, to be honest. I’m a coach who trained with how to use the OPQ.
What I love about it is that it doesn’t put anyone in a box. Maybe that’s a bias that I have. I don’t like being put in a box, or being told that this is who I am. I’ve seen it in the past, where that can be a little bit dangerous. I think personality type tools are super interesting, and actually usually very accurate. My concern with them is that people start over-identifying with their types, or the caricatures that they’ve been placed with.
I’ve seen it before. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. People are like, “Oh, I’m so red,” or, “That’s such a yellow thing to do. That’s so blue of you. Oh, you’re a classic ENFP,” or whatever. This is not me slighting those type based indicators, because I think they’re great and useful. I just think they’ve got to be taken with a pinch of salt.
What I like about the OPQ in particular, is that puts your personality on a continuum of one to ten, based on reference. There are 32 different behaviors, so it’s quite granular. It’s quite light touch. It’s not too deep and predictive. I’ve seen it evolve over time as well. How you report on the OPQ depends on where you’re at, your mindset, the environment you’re in, how candid you’ve been with the questionnaire. So there’s a number of factors, and it can change. It can evolve slightly. Some things don’t evolve much, because we are relatively fixed in some ways. But some things do change, if you’re intentional about them. I just feel like it gives you quite a lot of room for maneuver. Quite interesting to work with.
Richard Anderson:
It’s coming from a place of genuine curiosity, because I’ve never sat the OPQ. It’s funny, because you said before, “I’m not a psychometrician. I’m not an absolute expert in psychometrics.” But Josh, we’ve developed a psychometric platform, and I’m nowhere near as expert as I probably should be in these things. It’s fine to talk about the technology, from my perspective, but when it comes to the ins and outs of the tools, so it is just genuinely interesting. I think I could probably do with sitting a number of these types of tools, and maybe having some coaching delivered myself.
Josh Jeffries:
I’ll pay one out to you and Matt.
Richard Anderson:
There you go, fantastic stuff. Brilliant, okay. So what I’m really interested in, and I probably should have asked you this before, but I’ll ask it now. You talked, how you got into coaching, and how your initial experience or observation of coaching. What do you love best about it? You mentioned trying to get people into jobs before. Was it the satisfaction of them getting into jobs, based on the coaching that you provided them? Was it that? What do you love best about coaching, Josh?
Josh Jeffries:
So I’ll give you quite a philosophical answer.
Richard Anderson:
Go for it.
Josh Jeffries:
I’ll be interested to hear if you agree with this or not, because it could make for an interesting discussion. But I’m of the feeling that generally in life, in society, we’re getting worse at listening to each other. I think there’s a number of factors. We’re constantly distracted. Our phones, digitalization, work emails, life is busy. The world’s uncertain and volatile, and complex and all of that. It’s pretty hectic times. I think there’s a knock-on effect on the quality of relationships. There’s a knock-on effect on the quality of listening. I’ve felt it, certainly as a friend. Just the way, from what I observe.
What I love about coaching is that, it is this uninterrupted space, where people get to speak. They get to think out loud. They get to be listened to, and listened for. I listen to my clients, and I listen for my clients, and it’s deep listening you’re doing. Clients love it, and I love it. I’ve got a coach that I see once a month. Selfishly, it’s my time just to brain dump, to think out loud. To bounce ideas back and forth. To have my assumptions challenged. I just think it’s a wonderful, quite a sacred space.
The answer really, what do I love about it, is I find it’s an incredible privilege to hold that space for people. If what I think is true, that generally we’re getting worse at listening, then as a coach, I get to hold an amazing space for people to be listened to. That’s a profound privilege.
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, I think that’s a great answer. You asked me what I thought, whether I agreed or not. I certainly do. I think listening skills, they’re not what they once were. I wonder how much of that’s down to mobile phones, and being addicted to things like Instagram, Twitter, and whatever it might be. That you just become immersed in your phone. Therefore …
I was listening to a podcast fairly recently, I can’t remember the name of the podcast. But it was along those lines, where it was talking about listening skills, or concentration skills, or skills that have to be practiced. They can’t just be taken for granted. I wonder how much mobile phones and computers, or whatever it might be, are having an effect on those skills that we probably should have just naturally, but maybe struggle with. So I do agree with that. Would you therefore say that, for a coach to be effective, you need to be an incredible listener?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, 100%. This is funny though, because I think in a way, my coaching training was exactly what I needed to help me, with respect to my natural preferences and personality type. I’m an extrovert. We’ll talk about this in a bit. I’m an extrovert, but I’m also really outspoken. I’m quite chatty. I interject, or try not to. But yeah, I interject, I speak up. I’m quick to speak up. I have a lot of ideas. I get very energized, and very passionate. So actually, when I went through my coaching training, I was massively struck and challenged by my impulse to speak.
Actually, it was a real disciplined training for me, to bite my tongue. To suspend my judgment. To really listen, and listen at a deep level, and do what they call third person listening. Listening to and for, and from different perspectives. It’s quite a deep practice. It was exactly what I needed.
Richard Anderson:
Third person listening? Sorry, Josh, just dissect that. What does that mean, please?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, so third person listening, there’s me and you. There’s what would be called a transactional conversation. I speak, you speak. Then third person listening is almost like you’re the third person in the room, observing what’s being said. You hold a more objective position to the exchange. So as a coach, you practice third person listening, or global listening some people call it. There’s different terms for it, but it’s essentially listening on a deeper level.
So when I say I listen to you, and I’ve listened for you, I’m listening to what you’re saying. But I’m also, as I get to know you, and according to my intuition, etc, I’m listening on your behalf as well.
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, brilliant. So a coach has to be a superb listener. What do you think about the coachee, or the person who is being coached? How much do they have to be willing to talk? Do you find that that’s ever an issue? Because I think we hear a lot these days, particularly when it comes to our mental health, and fitness, and those types of things, that people aren’t willing to speak. Do you find that that’s ever a challenge? Is that a prerequisite to having good coaching? I’m listening, but you’ve got to have someone who’s willing to talk?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, definitely. It’s interesting, because when I first started coaching for Acre, when I was at Acre Frameworks before, it was a slightly different business model to the one I operate. We would partner with clients, big clients, often with global teams. The client would make coaching available to a whole team. An amazingly generous gift to give to your team. “Here’s six sessions to use with a coach.”
It was really interesting, noticing the people that would jump at that, and take it up, and others that you would have to nudge and chase, and say, “You haven’t booked in a session. Would you like to book in a session?” It just went to show for me, that some people, they’re a bit more, not suspicious, but they don’t feel they need it. Or they personally find the one to one space a little bit intimidating, or a bit much. Maybe it’s just not what they need right there, in that moment in their life or career, so they’re a bit more hesitant or whatever.
So yeah, you do. So I’m a bit different, in that I wouldn’t sell a coaching package now, and make it available to a whole team. Or prescribe coaching, and say, “You’ve got to go to six sessions.” Not that Acre did, but it’s a bit different. I really want to work with people that really want to work with me, and really value the space.
But equally, I think some people need a little bit of a nudge sometimes to open up. I’m working with someone at the moment who took me up on the offer of coaching. He came and asked to do coaching. But actually, in our sessions, for the first few sessions really struggled to speak freely. Just because he’d never had to do it before. He’d never done it before.
You can create as psychologically safe an environment as you like. You can be as approachable and friendly as you’d like. But some people, it just takes time, and actually you just need to go at their pace. Just because you’ve got a session, it’s confidential, and no one’s going to interrupt you, doesn’t mean you’re suddenly going to start going for it, and bring loads of ideas and goals to the session.
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, of course. I think the reason I ask that is because, I’ve told you this fairly recently, I started some coaching myself this year, for the first time ever. It wasn’t until I was sat in the room with my coach, who’s been absolutely brilliant, and sat down with her, and was asked questions, or given the opportunity to have a forum there to speak. Even until I was in that situation, I thought, “Well this isn’t going to be for me. Why would somebody coach me? Am I good enough to be coached?” Maybe there’s the imposter syndrome that kicks in. Or, “I only need a coach if I’ve got a massive worry that’s in the back of my head.”
But now, I genuinely would encourage, based on the experience that I’ve had, anybody to go and seek the services of a coach. Because I think there’s always areas that you can improve. It might be imposter syndrome for one person, and it has been for me, and catastrophizing. I’m very open with these things, so I think it’s important to talk about a worse case scenario, which is often with business. What if there’s a problem with a business? Or difficult conversations, or whatever it has to be. But I think it’s massively important for everybody.
But one thing that has always struck me, and I don’t know how much you see of this, or even if you’ve got a view on it. But coaching is often reserved for leadership within a lot of organizations. A lot of the budgets go towards developing leaders, rather than individual contributors. But I can see the merits of putting it across the business. Josh, I don’t know how you feel about that?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, you’re singing from the same hymn sheet. Just quickly, on what you’ve just said about what you bring to a session. What’s really useful, so in your sessions you might want to do some journaling before you go to your session. Because it might help you to formulate your ideas. Ultimately, sometimes it’s just nice to go into a session, blank canvas, see where it goes. I find sometimes I do that with my coach, and it’s great. I send out coaching preparation forms for some people, because we’re all different. We all think differently-
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, of course.
Josh Jeffries:
Some people like to reflect and write, and then they come and they share their ideas. Coaching ultimately is different to counseling. Coaching, it should have a fairly forward momentum to it. There should be a thrust. There should be some goals. You should know, a coach and a client should know what you’re aiming for. It’s usually good to have a bit of a game plan, or some goals, objectives, and a bit of preparation really helps that. So I would always encourage clients, if you’re seeing a coach, you get out what you put in, so go prepared for your session, knowing what you want to talk about, as often as you can.
Then yeah, on the latter point, yeah, I’m totally with you. My strap line, or my mission, and I’ve recently come up with this mission. A few weeks ago, it dropped into my consciousness. I was like, “Yes, that’s why I’m doing this business.” It’s to democratize leadership development. Capital Traits exists to democratize leadership development.
What that means is, it’s exactly what you’ve just said. Coaching is often a luxury reserved for senior professionals at the twilight of their careers. Don’t get me wrong, that’s great, because as leaders in your businesses, you are the culture carriers. You’re often the gatekeepers of the business. You role model a lot. Often what you role model is going to form and shape the culture and the environment of your business. So it’s hugely important that leaders are getting coaching, and are growing in self awareness, etc.
But I’d say potentially more important is that you develop a culture of coaching in your business, by making things like a personality assessment and coaching accessible to as many people as possible. If you think about it, the earlier you sew that into your business, over time you’re going to reap the benefits. It sounds a bit harsh on leaders, or senior people, and I don’t mean it this way. But you could argue that by the time you’ve reached a certain point in your career, you’ve been successful, and you’re now a leader in a business. Spending loads of money on leadership teams, and investing heavily in leadership teams, sometimes can be a little bit of a wasted resource.
Because leaders are successful for a reason, right? They’re there for a reason. But they maybe haven’t all got into those positions because of their natural leadership ability. A lot of them have gotten there because of longevity, and because they’re experts in their field, so they become leaders in the business. Maybe they’re not thinking so much about culture, behaviors, how to develop a coaching culture and a leadership culture. They’re maybe not thinking so much about that. But they’re business leaders in their own right, and they’re great.
So it’s, you’ve got to do both, I personally think. You’ve got to do both. I think the businesses that do more at the junior level, at the entry level, and really sew in at that level, will reap the benefits. The only problem is, as you know, coaching is just ridiculously expensive a lot of the time. Personality assessments are so expensive. So it makes it really difficult for businesses to invest in making coaching accessible to everyone. But that’s one of the things that I’m trying to change. I don’t think it needs to be as expensive as it has been.
Richard Anderson:
I know that you’re hugely passionate about that, and I completely agree with you. I love that, coaching-
Josh Jeffries:
I sound like a sales person if you get me-
Richard Anderson:
No, I-
Josh Jeffries:
… like I’m selling it, if I get too into it. But it’s crazy what people are charging, and I don’t think it needs to be the case.
Richard Anderson:
No, absolutely. It’s funny, when you talk about coaching culture, because again, not to labor the point. But until this year, when I started my own coaching, and I saw the benefits, and reaped the rewards and the results of that, where I thought, “Well, if this is working for me, why can’t this work across my team?” Obviously we’re a small business, and one of the things that you’re always thinking about as a small business is expenditure. How expensive things are. Return on investment. All of that stuff. I know what the return on investment on these types of tools are. But I guess not everybody will know that.
I think part of the reason that I know that is because I live in this world, and we work with a number of different coaches, and people who, L&D practitioners, and those sorts of things. But I think for small businesses as well Josh, in particular there’s massive opportunity out there for people to buy into that whole coaching culture.
Josh Jeffries:
Return on investment in L&D is the white whale. Even really seeing L&D practitioners that I’ve spoken to, I’m talking 30 years in the industry, leading L&D for some of the biggest companies in the world. Even they really struggle to tell a really compelling story on the return on investment for L&D. Because it is quite abstract, ultimately. It’s always going to be difficult.
You often see relatively vague statistics about engagement levels, and productivity, and that kind of thing. But really, the proof of the pudding is in talking to people. It’s in qualitative insights around how people are feeling, how they’re performing, how they’re doing, what’s changed? Then you will, if you track it, you will see the return on investment. But yeah, it’s challenging.
Richard Anderson:
It is, absolutely.
Josh Jeffries:
Having to quantify, yeah.
Richard Anderson:
Of course. You’ve given some really good insight so far, Josh, into the world of coaching, and how you got into that. But I’m really interested in why you’ve started your business, and why now of all times?
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, well it was a really bizarre time to start my business, actually. I mean on paper. On paper it was a bizarre time. It wasn’t bizarre to me. But from the outside in, it might look strange. I’m really lucky to have had a really amazing relationship with my former employer. I still work with Acre in an associate capacity. I don’t have a bad word to say about them. They’re an incredible business, and I had an amazing relationship with my previous line manager as well, Anna Keen. I’ll make sure I send this to her, so she hears this. But yeah, so she was a great mentor to me, and a formidable businesswoman. A great role model.
She and I had a very transparent relationship, in terms of where I was going within the company, where my ambitions lay, etc. So it was really open and honest. I told her years ago, that I wanted to start my own practice one day. We used to talk regularly about it. It would come up in what we called alliance conversations, which was appraisal conversations. So we’d check in on it every now and again.
Then in my fifth year, sixth year working with her, we just sat down. I said, “I think it’s time.” She said, “I had a feeling you might say that,” and said, “What can we do to help?” It was really freeing, actually. We agreed an end date, and I launched. So I was really lucky. But in terms of why, there were a few factors.
I was working from home, like the rest of the world, or many certainly in professional services. So I was working from home, in my spare room. I’m a massive extrovert, and I wasn’t getting any of the benefits of being an extrovert in the workplace. IE, I wasn’t going in, seeing my team. I wasn’t in the office having water cooler chats, as the Americans call it, or just coffee chats, or after work beers, which I used to love. So all the benefits of being an extrovert in the workplace had gone, with lockdown and work from home and stuff.
I found myself actually really busy with work, and I was spending a lot more time one to one, over camera, doing virtual coaching or assessments. It was just a case of, “I could be doing this for myself. I’ve always wanted to do it for myself. Why don’t I just do it?” It was a weird time, in that I’d just lost my mom. It was really out of the blue. A really tough time for me and the family. But the silver lining meant that we had a modest windfall coming, some inheritance coming, and I knew that there was a safety blanket coming for me and my family, that meant that for the next year, if it didn’t work out, I could afford to pay for the heating, and put food on the table if need be.
So I had this security blanket. I thought, “Do you know what? Now is as good a time as any.” I had a vision for it. I’d always been thinking about what it would look like, what I’d do. So I just went for it, and it’s been amazing, honestly. It’s been so cool. Loved it. I love being a solopreneur. I always get that name wrong, as a solo business owner. I think I-
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:29:23].
Josh Jeffries:
But yeah, not without its challenges, as you and I have discussed.
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, of course. It’s brilliant that you had a really supportive previous employer in Acre as well, that knew that that was your dream, and that was your aspiration and ambition, and supported you with that. Obviously you’ve still got a great relationship. I think that’s massively important. I had a very similar experience with my previous company, a company called Perfect Image, since we’re naming names. A couple of those guys might listen to that, who knows? But yeah, I think that’s massively important.
You mentioned the fact that you’re a massive extrovert. So I guess it was, you might as well be doing this for yourself if you’re not getting those benefits. Like you say, that’s really-
Josh Jeffries:
Kind of, yeah.
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, that’s really interesting. Being a massive extrovert, and now being a solopreneur, which I think is the right term. It sounds good anyway. You’ve said it’s been a fantastic experience. But is there any element of working for yourself that you have found difficult, given that you are an extrovert?
Josh Jeffries:
The obvious one, I work in a garden office at the bottom of my garden. An amazing little space we’ve created. Sometimes I just wish there was someone just over there, that I could just have a quick chat with, or distract. I was on a webinar recently with a psychologist called Nikita, who I really admire. Again, it’s important that we nod to people that have played an impact. Had an impact-
Richard Anderson:
I know Nikita.
Josh Jeffries:
Oh yeah, he’s amazing. I learned so much from him. But he was saying, he was describing extroverts as like meerkats. He said you can always spot an extrovert in the office, because every now and again, they’ll just pop their head up above. Just see who they can distract, just for a couple of minutes. I was that guy. I love coaching, I love the one to one stuff. I like to think I can be disciplined when I need to be. But I also love to just have a quick chat, distract someone, have a laugh. That’s what I miss. I really miss that.
I miss, I’m getting better now, but I miss having a network of like minded people in the same boat as me. I’m going now, finding those people, and joining network groups and stuff like that. I’ve found a guy who was a friend of a friend, who we meet up with every couple of weeks now. We meet up and work in a BrewDog, Waterloo, which has a coworking space. So we’re there together. Which is always dangerous, because you work in this coworking space, and then the bar is just downstairs. But it’s so fun.
When we work together, I actually get loads done. But we’re in the same world. We chat psychology. We chat assessments, and startup life. It has just been great working with him. His name is Mike Brown, might as well say that. Hello, Mike. Yeah, so that’s the main one. How about you? Because you’re now, you’ve got a team, but-
Richard Anderson:
Yeah, we do now. I have a team now, and I was very keen to get one as soon as I was able to afford one, really. That was the crux of it. When I started, as you know, I’ve got a co-founder, Matt. But there was only me full time at the business for quite some time. I would say probably for the first, maybe eight months or thereabouts. Because I’m an extrovert too, and I’d been so used to being office based.
When I was working from home at the beginning, when we started Evolve, that was in the days where it wasn’t normal to work from home. Most people worked at … I won’t say it wasn’t normal, but the majority of people in my world worked in an office, so I found that really difficult, because everyone was, my wife was going out to work every day. Friends were always out and about at work. I was moving from the bedroom, to the kitchen, to the dining room where I worked. I was in a really small dining room. It wasn’t set up as a-
Josh Jeffries:
Did you have kids at this point?
Richard Anderson:
We’d just had our first. He was three months when I did it. So is there ever a right time to do it, Josh? There you go.
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah, I know. No.
Richard Anderson:
You could say there’s never a right time.
Josh Jeffries:
But that you described there, with a three month old, moving from the dining room to the kitchen to the spare room, whatever, that is one of the toughest things about working from home, I think for anyone. Everyone’s got their challenges. I had a couple of mates who were in flats with housemates, and they only had one communal area. So their kitchen and dining room was quite pokey. They worked in their bedroom, and they lived in their bedroom basically. So everyone’s got their challenges. But I think parenting during lockdown, and starting up your own business, must have been very interesting.
Richard Anderson:
Yes, it was very interesting. It was very difficult. I didn’t, or I don’t, I do now actually, because the kids are in bunk beds, but I didn’t have a spare room. So I was working basically in the kitchen. We’ve moved houses, and I should have probably thought, given that I didn’t really have a spare area the previous time, I should have just gotten a bigger house. But anyway, there you go. That’s another story for another time. But yeah, working in the kitchen, and then having, at the time, a three year old as he was, and a fairly newborn. Because my second was born in May 2020, so right in the middle of lockdown. So that was good fun.
But I have to be honest, Josh. As soon as I was able to go back to the office, I took the opportunity. So in the July or August, or whatever. I took the necessary precautions, but I just needed to get out of the house, and get a bit more normality. So what’s the plan for you, as time goes on? I don’t know whether you’ve got one of those five year plans in place or whatever. But I just mean in terms of they next year or two. Do you think you’ll look to recruit? Or will you stay solo? Or coworking spots permanently?
Josh Jeffries:
It’s the golden question, isn’t it? Firstly, I’m learning every day right now, so it’s hard to think about the five year plan. But what I will say is, I personally think that, again this would be an interesting one for you to disagree with or not. But a bit idealistic of me, I think that the purpose of work, or the purpose of work, is employment. I think businesses exist to employ people, and I think it’s an incredible privilege, if you have a viable business, what an amazing privilege to be able to provide employment for people. I think that’s what makes the world go round.
So yeah, I think starting my own business, if I didn’t have plans to hire someone, that would be disingenuous of me. But that said, it’s slowly slowly, right? I’ve got lots to work on, but lots of great clients right now. I say lots. I’ve got good clients right now. I’m relaxed. But I need a lot more clients, and a lot more of a viable revenue stream, and replicable lower hanging fruit, to justify bringing someone in to help. But that said, I’d love to. I’d love to bring someone in.
I often meet people, and I think, “You’d be an amazing coach.” Or, “You’d be great at what I do. I’d love to take you under my wing, or just bring you in somehow,” and I can’t right now. It’s frustrating. But yeah, so the answer is yes, I’d love to hire someone. Right now though, it’s about nine months in. It’s about just building things out-
Richard Anderson:
Building the business.
Josh Jeffries:
Yeah.
Richard Anderson:
It’s really exciting, isn’t it? I’m sure people like this exist. Maybe I should have done some research before I say what I’m about to say. But it would be nice as well, I think, if there were coaches for entrepreneurs, or people who have started their own business-
Josh Jeffries:
Oh yeah, [inaudible 00:36:32]-
Richard Anderson:
I did a few LinkedIn videos, just to give some of my thoughts about all my experiences of starting a business. What I did well, what I didn’t do so well. What I would have preferred to do if I had my time again. Those types of things. Because I feel as though the support maybe isn’t out there for people who have never done it before. They’ve always worked for somebody else. They’ve always wanted to have their own business, for whatever reason that might be. Then they end up in that position, and you think, “Well crikey, what am I going to do now?” That was what it was like for me.
I know that there will be mentors out there. But I think to have the ability to seek the services of a coach maybe that you could just sit down and, “This is really hard.” You know, “Let me give you some tips.” All of that stuff. I think that would be quite cool.
Josh Jeffries:
There’s loads out there. In fact, in some sense, sometimes you go on LinkedIn and you think, “God, it’s a really saturated market, isn’t it? Everyone seems to be a coach these days.” But that’s probably just because of my network. But there’s loads out there. I would say that with specific coaching, business coaching, startup coaching, you want a coach or a mentor who’s been there and done it. It’s really worth doing your research on where they’re coming from, and why they have niched into that world. Because if you’ve niched as a coach to help entrepreneurs, or to help scale startups, then hopefully you’ve got a track record, and you can say, “Meet this CEO who I worked with, and hear it from the horse’s mouth.”
So I think, yeah, there’s loads out there. I think now, more important than ever to do your research on who you’re working with. Meet them, sense check them, and really get to know each other, and understand each other’s aims before you commit. But yeah, definitely something. I lean on someone who knows a lot more about coaching than I do. I’ll meet with him once a month, and he’s been great for me.
Richard Anderson:
It’s brilliant. I think the education piece needs to be there as well as the people, because you probably have a load of coaches in your network on LinkedIn, and those types of things. I probably do as well now, but at one stage I didn’t, and at one stage I didn’t realize that that was even a thing. I knew that coaching existed, but coaching for startups and entrepreneurs. It’s only been with the benefit of hindsight, and a few years experience under my belt, that I thought, “Well if I’d known about that at the time.” So maybe that education piece needs to be a bit more out there.
I know that doing things like this, podcasts talking about the benefits of coaching, and all of that sort of stuff are going to help. But the more people that can get out to, I think the better for me.
Josh Jeffries:
For sure.
Richard Anderson:
Brilliant. Josh, I’m really grateful for all of the insights that you’ve given throughout the last 40 minutes or so. It’s been really, really interesting. I, as always, want to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit more about Capital Traits. Maybe for any listeners who might be interested in contacting you, or picking your brains about these things. The floor is yours. Give us a little bit more about Capital Traits, and how people can contact you.
Josh Jeffries:
Gosh, I should have rehearsed an elevator pitch for this moment. So if you contact me on LinkedIn, or just get through to me on the website, which is capitaltraits.com, I’d love to speak to anyone with whom the mission resonates. So if you are a business owner, or a leader with a budget, and you resonate with that mission to democratize leadership development, and make coaching and support in a form of assessments to help develop self awareness, and leadership competence in your business, get in touch. Because it doesn’t need to break the bank, and I’d love to work with anyone who’s keen to hear more.
I don’t have a powerful marketing suite behind me, or a sales funnel. So the best way to get to know me is to reach out. Drop me a message. We can arrange a quick call, and see how we can work together. But yeah, thanks so much for having me on the podcast, Richard. It’s my first time podcasting. It’s been great. I need to work on not rambling, which I’m doing now. Something, I need to be probably more succinct. But no, it’s been really fun. Really, really fun. Thank-you.
Richard Anderson:
You would never think it’s your first one, believe you me. But no, I really, really appreciate your time, Josh. It’s really interesting to hear about your story as well. I’m always keen. You know that it’s a big passion of mine, people starting businesses, and also coaching is a big passion of mine now as well. So it’s really, really interesting for me personally, and I know that the listeners will feel the same. So just to say, thank-you very much, and we’ll speak soon.
Josh Jeffries:
Cheers, Richard. See you soon.
Richard Anderson:
Take care, Josh. Thanks.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening to Psyched For Business. For show notes, resources, and more, visit evolveassess.com.
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